 |
|
The Hendon Mob
|
|
|
|
17 Dec 2009
|
|
|
| |
 |
Situation: A £300 tournament at the
Vic, last 2 tables with 5 getting
paid, and the blinds are 300/600
with a 100 ante.
Me (UTG – 12,000) dealt A-K but before
I can act Neil Channing (to my immediate
left – c.4,000) goes all in.
I ask the dealer what the protocol is here
regarding Neil's bet and he states that it
goes whatever my action (i.e. limp, call or
raise). Therefore I go all in to force everyone
else out, at which point someone else says
Neil should be allowed to take his chips back
as I raised more than his bet (i.e. if I limp or
call his bet stands).
At this point the floor is called and the
ultimate ruling is that Neil is allowed to
take his chips back as the house rule is
that it only stands if I limp or call (despite
the dealer's statement to the contrary).
Of course I protest this is unfair, but
the floor says they have to consider the
other players behind us and so I cannot
now even change my action and instead
call or limp so his bet stands! Therefore I
am forced to go all in, Neil takes his bet
back, and all fold... |
MATT SAVAGE
While it is true that his action stands if you just limp or fold,
once all of the other action has taken place I would not allow
him to take his bet back. If he felt the dealer’s ruling was
wrong he should have called the floor straight away. I want
to make the rule in the best interest of the rules and players.
THOMAS KREMSER
If I am called to the table before anybody else acts I would
allow him to change his decision because he was given
wrong information by the dealer and he was asking clearly
before he acted. If action took place already I would not
allow him to change his action and would apologize for
the dealer. Neil is allowed to take back his chips and fold.
DAVE LAMB
The correct decision was given by the floor, once the
action changes to the out of turn player he may now fold,
call or raise. In a sense, you restore your opponents’
options by raising in front of his out of turn action.
JEFF LEIGH
I actually made this ruling and although it was our rule at
the time I believe it was wrong and we have since
subsequently changed it to make it simpler.
The rule at the time stated that if a player bets out of
turn then the bet will stand unless a player in front of him
bets in excess of his “offending” bet, in which case he
has the option to take his bet back. The problem with the
rule was that dealers who were asked as to what the
situation was after someone had bet out of turn “never”
explained correctly that the “offending” bet would go
“unless” a live player in front of him bet “more” than he did.
This is why we would get this type of problem.
The other thing is that if someone moves all in out of
turn then he hasn’t got any more chips to protect anyway or
any decision left to make, so in “any” given scenario an all in
(out of turn) player should never get their chips back. We
have now simplified the rule to say; all out of turn bets will
go and the offending player is then penalised from making
further action during the rest of that round of betting.
JACK EFFEL
Action out of turn may or may not be binding. If a player
acts out of turn and the action does not change by the
time it is that player's turn to act, that player's action is
binding. Action only changes by a player raising before
the action gets back to the person that acted out of turn.
Action does not change when the player in front of
a player acting out of turn calls or folds. If a player acts
out of turn and the action changes, the person who
acted out of turn may change their action by calling,
raising or folding and may have their chips returned. I
issue a warning for the first occurrence of acting out of
turn, and penalties every time thereafter.
THOMAS LAMATSCH
The rules say, that if a player acts out of turn, the
chips have to stay in the pot, except if another player
makes a raise.
So in this case, Neil should be allowed to take his
chips back.
But in the sense of the game I would decide, if
there was no more action behind, that Phil can also
take back his chips and is now allowed to react, with
the knowledge of the right ruling.
The final decision is always the ruling of the tournament
director and he has to overrule the dealer, if necessary.
MOB VERDICT
It is established, and most card rooms have the rule,
that a bet out of turn is binding providing the action
does not change by the time it is that player's turn to
act. In this situation two things make it more difficult:
Firstly, the fact that the dealer misled Phil before he
acted. If any player didn’t agree with the dealer they
should really have spoken up before Phil acted. Neil
may have felt that by entering into the conversation
before Phil acted he would have given away
information, but we feel that once he had acted out of
turn he had probably relinquished the right to protect
himself in this way. This however would not be
enough reason to depart from the normal rule.
However, it isn’t just a case of acting out of turn
by betting or raising - the player moves all in. We feel
that moving all in out of turn is different to any bet or
raise out of turn as the player acting out of turn has
no further action to make in the hand. For this reason
we think a rule should be added, or the acting out of
turn rule amended, to say that a player moving all in
out of turn is committed to go all in. If he isn’t
committed then there are angles to be shot here. If he
is committed every player at the table knows exactly
where they stand. If a player repeatedly moves all in
out of turn this would not be in the spirit of
the game and he may receive warnings or
penalties accordingly.
Having said that, we also think that Jeff goes too
far by extending the exception to any case where a
player in front of the out of turn bettor bets more than
the out of turn bet. This could create situations like
the following: Player B could raises out of turn to 5k
(bb 1k) leaving himself 100,000 behind. Now if
player A raises to 3K, player B's bet stands and
reopens the action for player A.
This article first appeared on The Hendon Mob website.
|
|
|
|
|
